37. Loving The Poop Of Life (interview with Danny Lim)

Back in March 2025, I recorded a raw and intimate conversation in Finland with my  friend Danny Lim, the preeminent life coach and coach trainer of Singapore. 

In this episode, we talk about:

• Why I share from oozing wounds, not healed scars — and why I don't believe in the idea of "oversharing" 
• My time in the "void" where I lost all clarity and thought I might never get it back
• What it's like to run a business on pure gut feeling 
• Why everyone you admire is exactly as fucked up as you are

This is a long one, so get comfortable. We go deep into what it means to "love the poop of life" -- and how to build your business from inside of the compost.

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Hang out with the incredible Danny Lim on Instagram! 

Transcript

Hello, my friends. You're listening to Liberatory Business and I'm your host, Simone Seol.

You're about to listen to a really special conversation that I had with one of my dearest friends, Danny Lim. This conversation actually happened in Lapland, Finland, at the tail end of a retreat where he was hosting his clients and I had been so fortunately invited to co-teach.

He sat me down to ask me a bunch of questions, and the journey of how we got there is its own wild story—from Danny having once been a devoted fan of my podcast, listening to it on his late-night walks in Singapore, to us sitting together as friends near the Arctic Circle, having what might be one of the more raw and unfiltered conversations that I've ever recorded.

We dive straight into the deep end here. While most business conversations tell you to share only from your scars, not your wounds, we're gonna talk about why I fundamentally disagree—why sometimes the oozing, messy, still-bleeding parts of ourselves are exactly what needs to be shared.

Danny opens up about how he lost thousands of followers when he shared his grief in real time as his mother was dying. And I share about why I believe "oversharing" is a myth designed to keep us small and under control.

We're also gonna talk about radical trust—trusting your people enough to show them who you really are, trusting your intuitions and emotions even when they make no business sense supposedly, and trusting the empty void even when it feels like you've lost all clarity and aren't sure if it's ever coming back.

We're also gonna talk about why everyone you admire is exactly as fucked up as you are, and why loving what I call the poop of life—the inconvenient, messy, uncomfortable parts—is maybe the only way to truly love yourself and to love being alive.

So fair warning, this is a long one. Pour yourself something delicious, get comfortable, maybe take it out on a walk. We're going deep and we're taking our time, so let's dive in.

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Danny: Oh my goodness. Okay. I am super excited and also very nervous because...

Simone: Me too.

Danny: This is an epic fantasy moment for me unfolding in real time. There have been so many dreams of mine that have come true in a very short period of time, from late last year until now. And for those of you who are watching or listening, I have Simone Seol with me.

You know, if there's one podcast interview that I could do and then I can die happy, it is to have a conversation with you.

Simone: Stop it. Stop, stop, stop it.

Danny: Okay, so this is an epic moment for me because I started off as a huge, huge, huge fan boy of your podcast, of your work, and your work has been so life-changing for me, not only in business or marketing, but also as an inspiration for my own life.

You have taught me things that you probably didn't know you taught me, and you have been so instrumental. So I've been a biggest fan boy for the longest time, and I immediately had an affinity to you when I listened to your podcast on my late night walks many, many years ago. And I would always be looking forward to your new episode drop.

You know how when you discover a podcast and then you binge and then you run out of episodes to binge and you have to wait for the next new episode? That was torturous for me. But every time you had a new episode, I would just rejoice. And I love listening to your voice. I love listening and receiving your energy and your wisdom. And I just felt like I know you and I just felt like I really wanted you to get to know this little fan boy who lives in Singapore, whose life you have transformed so much.

And I remember just fantasizing all the time that one day I will get to speak to you. I would get to know you. And I was like, in my wildest dream, I was like, okay, in my crazy ass bucket list, what would it be? It's like to have Simone Seol on my podcast. And it is happening now. So can we welcome Simone Seol?

Simone: It's so funny because we've already become like family and this podcast is like just, it's like nothing, right?

Danny: Yeah. So, where are we now? Are we in Singapore? Are we in Seoul?

Simone: No, we are in Finland.

Danny: And how did this thing happen? Do you remember?

Simone: Yes. So Danny and his friends were visiting Seoul late last year. And of course I had to show them around my city and I invited them into my home. We were having dinner and Danny just said, "We're going on a retreat to Finland, would you please come be a co-teacher?" And I hardly knew when it was. I had no idea about any of the details. I don't know what was gonna be taught. There was no contract, no nothing. With just that one invitation—"Come to Finland and co-teach with me"—I was a hell yes because I just had that much trust in our friendship and in Danny and who he is as a teacher and the kind of spaces he creates.

And so after that, it was hell yes, no questions asked. And here I am today. And I'm so glad I was smart enough to trust myself and Danny, and our relationship because it has been the most remarkable experience of my whole life being here.

Danny: Thank you for your trust. There's been a lot of trust because up until a few days before the trip, Simone would be like, she's like, "I have a very stupid question to ask you. Do we have the accommodation? Where am I gonna live? Is there gonna be food?"

Simone: Like, is there a bed for me?

Danny: Yeah. Is there a bed? Is there food? Do I have to arrange for this or that? What about transportation and all of that? And I'm like, oh my God, it's a bit too late to ask those questions.

Simone: I just booked my flight. I just needed—I had enough information to book my flights and the rest of it was like, I have no idea where in Finland I'm going. I don't know if I have a bed. I don't know what—I just leave it in Danny's hands.

Danny: Yeah. You really trusted us a lot. And then, you know, there's this little detail that you left out in how this all came about and I think it's instrumental and so important to share with the audience here.

I think after the Seoul trip, right when I got back to Singapore, we traded messages, right? And one of the first messages you dropped me was, "Hey, how's everything," yada, yada, yada. "And Danny, can you please just let me know how can I support you?" And that question was so mind-blowing for me because I'm like, who speaks like that? Who speaks like that?

Simone: We do.

Danny: Yes. Apart from me, you know? So to be on the receiving end of that kind of generosity and love, it was such a nourishing thing for me. And I remember being so mind-blown once again by that question alone. And I was like, "Are you sure? What do you mean by how can you support me? Because I have a million and one things in my head, you know, the things that we can do."

And then you're like, "Yeah, just anything." And I was like, "Okay, are you sure? Now I'm just gonna say—" And you're like, "Yeah." And I said, "You know, the retreat, I think it'd be so cool for you to join and co-teach the masterclass and all of that." And without even thinking too much, you said, "Yeah, it's a hell yes. I'm sure we will figure out the logistics." And I was like, who speaks like that?

So thank you for being here and thank you for being in my life and I just need to pinch myself. I really need to pinch myself. So I think before we dive into—I've got a bazillion questions that I wanna ask you—but before we dive into that, I really just want to remind people, and the reason why I wanna share how this whole thing came about, why it's important to me and why this is a dream come true, is that when we think of something and we think that it's very far away from us, it can happen. You know, it all begins with a thought. So whatever you are dreaming of creating or welcoming in your life, even if it seems like such a huge fantasy, it can happen...

Simone: Sooner than you think. And not necessarily in ways that you expect.

Danny: Yeah.

Simone: So you have to think about what you want and then release attachment to how it happens.

Danny: Yeah. You know, we were having a conversation maybe last night or the day before about resonance and I think that when I was listening to your podcast, I felt this strong resonance that I already know you. So I think that resonance I received years ago was from this moment. You know, that deep knowing and reality just had to catch up.

Simone: Yeah. So think of—we have this conversation like, think about your future self. Whatever you're feeling resonance with right now is your future self sending you messages about where you're headed and what's pulling you. It's all messages from your future. So be prepared to be surprised. Pay attention to the resonances you're feeling now. Pay attention to what makes your ears perk up, what makes your heart sing. And then it's like, oh, that's my future self sending me messages.

Danny: Yeah. So, to give a little bit of context, we're at the tail end of the retreat, Finland 2025, and Simone and I co-taught a masterclass on abundance and true richness and true wealth beyond money. And it was a three-day affair. And you met the Snowmiles and the Seamiles. What's your impression of them?

Simone: Oh, you know, it's so funny. We were having lunch today and I told them, you know, when I first met you, none of you had ever met me before. And I was afraid that you might not like me. And so I was thanking them for opening their hearts to me and making me feel like—I fell in love with each of them. They're beautiful people and they were so mind-blown that I was worried that they wouldn't like me. Like, "Why wouldn't we like you?" I'm like, "I don't know. I'm human. I've never met you before."

Danny: You know, I think the coolest people and the loveliest people are the people who admit that they're like, "Oh, what if you don't like me? What if you don't think I'm cool?" I think it's so endearing.

Simone: A part of me is always like back in school—you know, I moved around a lot when I was little and when I was in school and just going to a new school and having to make friends all over again. You know, wondering, are they gonna like me? Are they gonna think I'm too much? Which happened quite often. "She's weird. She's too much." That was a constant refrain in my life. And I still worry after meeting new people, especially if I like them. It's like, do they like me back? Do they think I'm weird? Do they think I'm too much? Was I—and then I constantly second-guess like, wait, what did I say? I try to remember what I said and what I did, and then ask myself, "That was probably a bad move. Why did I have to be so weird? Be normal, Simone." You know, I do this. I've never stopped. And I think, like you said, I don't think it's a problem. I think it's endearing that I do that.

Danny: It is very endearing that it matters to us, right? And I knew that Snowmiles would lap you up and they would love you because we have very similar energy. We're the same. We are kind of crazy. We're two peas in a pod and I kept telling them, "I can't wait for you to meet Simone. You're gonna love it." And of course, a lot of them know who you are already.

So my first question really is for anyone living under a rock who has not met the magic of Simone Seol yet—give us the lightning-fast, rollercoaster version of how you got here.

Simone: Here, like in life?

Danny: In life.

Simone: Oh my gosh. I'm a spiritual seeker who never quite felt at home in any career, institution, academia. I've tried to walk many different paths. And I really had a passion for helping people to suffer less because I had a lot of suffering in my life and I was trying to claw my way out of my own suffering.

And what I learned along the way was so valuable because I know how much it hurts to hurt. And so it kind of became my life mission to help people to suffer less if I can help them with what I know. And so that kind of turned into many different things—hypnosis practice, coaching, tarot reading. And I don't think of these things as different things. They're just tools in my toolbox, things that I learned to be better at helping people to suffer less.

And so along the way, somehow, through reflections from other people, I discovered that I had a gift for really communicating with people authentically and with heart and in a way that really moved other people and inspired them to step out of their own comfort zones and be as big as they really deserved to be.

And that kind of turned into me becoming this marketing teacher. And I don't teach marketing from a conventional perspective. I teach marketing as a way of showing up with your authenticity, showing up with the bigness of the brilliance and creativity that's inside you so that you can create resonance with people who are aligned with you and who are going to be touched and transformed because they touched your gifts.

So I am not a typical business teacher. I'm not a typical marketing teacher. It's all about us lighting each other's humanity and then walking each other home. So along the way, I've had a very beloved podcast. I've written two books on all these topics. And I just emerged out of an eight-month sabbatical in which I was just kind of reassessing where I wanna direct my work going forward. And I'm still kind of feeling my way into it one step at a time.

Danny: Yeah. Cheers. Thank you, Kenji, for the coffee.

Simone: Thank you. Delicious.

Danny: Okay, so what is one core belief about life or business that you have completely abandoned recently, and what's replaced it?

Simone: Oh, okay. One core belief is that—how should I say this? It is not so much a belief as much as a way of looking at things where one side is positive and the other side is negative, one side is light and the other side is dark. And you have to be on the side of positivity. You have to be on the side of the light, you have to be on the side of certainty and clarity.

This dualistic way of looking at life and business is something that I subscribed to my whole life. And it created enormous suffering. And I have come to thoroughly abandon this dualistic way of looking at things. And that's when I think I found real liberation and mastery and power in what I do.

So I no longer look at the darkness, messiness, chaos, pain, uncertainty of life as a problem to be fixed. Nor do I look at the same in business as a problem to be fixed because our life encompasses the whole, the yin and the yang, the light and the dark. And it is through engagement with all of it that we grow as souls, and that's what we're really after. We're here to grow as souls.

And so, I think so much of the self-development, self-help coaching world can be about trying to escape the bad and to chase the good, to transcend the dark and go into the light. And I think these are ultimately really broken ways of looking at what life is all about. Because we always have to banish and deny and suppress a fundamental part of existence, which is all the uncomfortable stuff that we don't wanna look at, but will always come with us. Like, we're alive right now, which is glorious, and one day we're gonna die.

Danny: Yeah. So, did something happen for you to come to that shift?

Simone: I don't think there was one thing. I think it was years of exploration and also feeling disillusioned because, you know, like I said, I had a lot of pain in my life and I was looking for a way out because I didn't wanna suffer anymore. I wanted to be happy, not sad. I wanted to be confident, not vulnerable.

And in my own quest to find my own peace and power, I ultimately realized how futile it is, how pointless it is, and what a dead end it is to always be denying a very fundamental part of life. And so, I think it was years of exploration into eastern traditions, Buddhism, Taoism, and mystical traditions and different spiritual traditions across the world that teach this—that our wholeness is not found in perfection, but in the totality of experience.

And I think people who are working on their businesses and can really embrace this—it's really hard because our whole system, our whole society, our whole culture teaches the opposite. It says you have to be perfect. You have to be good, you have to be all these positive things. And it teaches us to be afraid of the other side. And so when you can really integrate all of it, that's when people are their most creatively daring. That's when they're most original. That's when they're the most charismatic and resonant.

Simone: And so it's—I kind of see it as like, it's not a new mission, but it's like a new articulation of my mission. It's to lead as many people to that wholeness of life as possible.

Danny: Yeah. Which is why it's so inspiring when I observe how you have been navigating this eight-month void that you have been in. And of course we're gonna unpack all of that later. But I think I learned so much from the way you lean into the void, and for a lot of people it can feel very unnerving. I felt very anxious for you too. And then I realized that the anxiety is something that I've generated for myself when I imagine myself in your position. And I go, like, if I'm navigating a void for eight months, I will be really, really nervous and anxious.

Simone: I was. It was.

Danny: Yeah. But then like, I think you give me so much strength, you know, when you admit the inconvenient pieces, you know, this whole middle bit can be very dirty, can be very inconvenient, can be very messy. And the longer you sit with that, the more it challenges me and inspires me that it's okay to deal with the dirty, messy bits of life and business.

Simone: You know, right now we're in Lapland, Finland at a time when a lot of the snow from winter is melting, right? And it's kind of like snow is melting, but it's not fully melted. So it's just like brown sludge in a lot of places.

Danny: Yeah.

Simone: And when spring arrives, it's gonna be gorgeous, but right now it's kind of in between.

Danny: And it's very slippery.

Simone: Slippery parts. Partially frozen. Like brown sludge, very yucky.

Danny: Yeah.

Simone: And I think we hate the brown sludge phase, but we can never get to spring without the brown sludge phase. And our friend Koka said this great thing. He says the Finnish saying, which is spring is like a rocking chair. Like one day it's warm, you're like, "Spring is coming," and the next day it's like snowing and freezing again. And then it warms up a little bit and you're like, "Spring is coming," and then it freezes again. Spring kind of teases you.

I thought that was such a great expression. I think the same is true with clarity. A lot of the times when we are in the tunnel of darkness, when we're in a liminal phase, we think, "Oh, I got it. The clarity is coming." And then, "Oh shit, I didn't get it at all."

Danny: I didn't get it.

Simone: "Wait a minute, I'm back to square one. Wait, I see a glimmer of light. Maybe this is it." No, you get slammed back into—

Danny: The brown sludge again.

Simone: The sludge of life. But the thing is, we judge the brown sludge of life. Nature doesn't judge it.

Danny: Mm-hmm.

Simone: We're like, "Oh, we don't want the sludge. It's not pretty." But nature doesn't give a fuck what we think is pretty. Nature is like, this is just what happens when we transition from winter to spring. And so I think that is what we need to learn from nature.

Danny: Yeah. The transitions are messy and dirty.

Simone: Yeah.

Danny: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Okay. What's one belief or habit from your earlier days that you look back now and you laugh so hard at it because you've outgrown it so hard?

Simone: Hmm. A habit that I've outgrown. Gosh, I'm not sure I've outgrown any of them completely.

Danny: Or a belief.

Simone: Or a belief. Oh yeah, yeah. That's a good one. I thought—this is really cute—I thought that if I had a big business and a lot of people looked to me for wisdom, and a lot of people admired me, and I had enough money in the bank to not have to worry about paying the bills, I would finally be happy and validated. And I would finally feel as confident as I always wanted to feel. Which is a really adorable idea, but...

Danny: But...

Simone: But ask anyone who has achieved those things if that's true and it's not true, because your brain stays the exact same while the outer circumstances around you change. The only way your brain changes is by changing your brain, not by changing the external circumstances.

Danny: Mm-hmm.

Simone: And what's more is that I have seen people who attain some degree of socially, conventionally accepted success, popularity, wealth, and because they never slow down enough to interrogate where the insecurity was coming from in the first place—let's say before they had those things, they were insecure and they gained money, they gained popularity, and the insecurity remains the same.

Instead of slowing down to tend to that within, they just keep—"I think if I just made more money, I think if I just was more popular, I think if I had a bestselling book, I think if I had this"—and they just keep adding to the pile. And that ultimately ends up creating a lot of suffering for them.

And it makes me sad to see, but to me, I just had to solve it for myself because it was too painful. Like to think, wait, how long am I gonna wait until something outside of me validates that I'm worthy? That I get to feel good being the human being that I am.

And so now, knowing that gives me—the other great thing about really knowing that is that I'm no longer looking to people around me to validate me, which if I don't know that, then I'm always in this process of trying to manipulate them into giving me that validation. And that's a very dangerous thing to do, and it makes people feel unsafe around you.

So I know that I truly, deeply know that even if Oprah Winfrey called me, Barack Obama called me tomorrow and said, "Simone, I want you to be my best friend, give me advice or whatever," I know that truly, truly, that would not change the way I think about myself. And the reverse is true too. If the entire world decided they hate me and I became cast away—I'm not saying that wouldn't be hard. Obviously that would be hard, but I don't think that would rock my sense of who I think I am.

And I think that's the ultimate liberation that I got from the growth journey I've been on, not popularity or money, because those things could evaporate tomorrow.

Danny: Okay. So the sense of who you are, where does it come from now?

Simone: It comes from being alive, which sounds very basic, but being alive means engaging with the light and dark of life and the light and dark of who I am.

I am so incredibly far from being a perfect person and I still have big wounds inside of me, big traumas that I haven't even begun to heal. And I have very big, vexing, painful questions in my life that I have yet to solve. But I'm not sure if I'll ever completely solve them. And to me, my sense of self comes from knowing I'm someone who explores these things without fear.

You know, I haven't solved my deepest traumas, but I am working on having a sovereign relationship with my traumas. I haven't solved all the biggest, most vexing questions in my life, but I'm going to die asking better and better and better questions.

So it's all about the aliveness of—I just went ice fishing for the first time in the lake that I've never tried before. And this wonderful Finnish guy taught us how to ice fish. And we only caught like 10 little fish, like the size of our fingers, and even the tiny fish that we caught, once you take the hook out, it just kind of tries to live. It flaps on top of the ice until its last breath. That was very sobering for me to see, even though it was tiny fish, because it's a life, right? It's ending and up until the last breath, it's gonna flap on the ice. And to me that flapping is our aliveness. And I know that I'm gonna be flapping for answers, flapping to understand my place in the universe until the last breath I take. And that's where I get my sense of self.

Danny: Yeah. Oh my goodness. That's so profound. Do you think what you got great at through the years is the capacity to live in a question? The capacity to live in a void?

Simone: Yeah. To love the question and love the void. When I say love, I don't mean like you have to be like, "Ha ha ha, I love it." You know, it's not like that. You can be like, "Ugh, fuck this" also. But I still love it.

I think humans don't actually want to be happy and resolved and certain. I think we like uncertainty. I think we like drama unconsciously.

Danny: Definitely.

Simone: This is why we watch scary movies. That's why we read books with dramatic narrative arcs. And I think we keep recreating them in our lives because the whole point of being alive is to grow. And there's no growth if we have it all figured out all the time.

Danny: And I think the whole point of being alive, right, is that we don't know what's coming. And the aliveness is like, if we already know how our life is gonna pan out all the way until our last breath, then what's the point?

Simone: Exactly. Like, I often think about the worst-case scenario. To me, contemplating the worst-case scenario is a spiritual practice as well as something very practical that I do for my business, because it's one of the fastest shortcuts to returning me to my power.

But like my worst-case scenario would be, okay, let's say my husband left me and somehow I didn't get to see my kid anymore. And then I was completely broke and I had no family to fall back on and I just had lost everything. And let's say I didn't have my business anymore and I was canceled from the internet. And so nothing that I used to look to ground my sense of self or my sense of safety—let's say all evaporated tomorrow. It would obviously be excruciatingly painful, but then there's—this sounds so weird, but almost really twisted—but there's a part of me that thinks, "Oh, that's an interesting challenge."

Danny: Okay, wait. I'm just gonna read to you the next question on my list.

Simone: Okay.

Danny: And it is—I tell you, oh my God, we're so in sync. It is: If your entire business disappeared tomorrow but you kept all of your inner knowing, what's the first thing you would do?

Simone: Yeah. Oh my God. Exactly. So, to make the stakes even more stark, let's say I lost my entire business and I couldn't just go back to Instagram and say, "Hey, I'm Simone, I'm starting a new business." Like, let's say everybody hated me. Let's say I was canceled from the internet. Something happened and I lost all of my money. There's like $50 in my bank account. And let's say my husband left me and I lost custody of my kids. It's like literally my worst nightmare. And my parents are dead and there's no money anywhere.

I would, I think frankly, I would probably spend a long time just having a complete meltdown and processing the grief and the anger and the shame and whatever, all the human emotions that come up. I know that's gonna happen because I'm human. And I'm a quadruple Pisces. Like I'm a very tender, sensitive human. So I would have spent a long time just melting down and just dissolving.

And then I think I would figure out—this sounds almost too glib and I don't mean for it to be, and I'm sure it won't be—but like, what's the lesson in all of this? Because I don't think anything happens in life just to fuck you over. Like, okay, what's happening here? If I lost everything that I held dear, what was incongruent before? Because if something burns down, it's for a reason. Even if I can't make sense of the reason, like where do I grow from here? How do I grow from here?

And I think that might mean—there's growth and richness in the experience of being humbled, right? So when it's a profound humbling, that's medicine too. And I think something that brings you closer to the earth is something that's very good for your soul sometimes. I think I would first figure out how to make a living. Like I can go work at a restaurant, I can take care of kids, I can teach English. I don't know. And I could think from there, I almost get kind of excited by the spiritual lessons that I'd learn from that experience. I'm not gonna stop being me.

And history is full of examples of extraordinary people who met really horrible circumstances and forged something out of that. And don't get me wrong, I'm like, "Hey, universe, I'm not asking for any of this at all. Please don't let any of that happen. I don't want it." But like I said, we're here to flap like the fish on the ice, and the flapping is like, "Wait, what the fuck is the meaning of life? Why am I here? Where am I supposed to go?" In asking those very questions is I think where I'm gonna find my meaning.

Danny: Is that deep trust that you can survive something like that, like unflinchingly, like you'll figure it out because you always have your back?

Simone: Well, actually, yes and no. Yes, in the sense that I believe in my own resilience and I believe that no matter how deep of a rock bottom I hit, there's a life force inside me that says this is not the end. But at the same time, if I'm being really honest, I don't know. My mental health is always kind of fragile. I might just have a breakdown and—but you know what though? I think part of the reason that life is beautiful is because it's so risky.

If there was no real risk in life—people do extreme outdoor activities because there's fulfillment, there's meaning, there's satisfaction that you can't get elsewhere from things that involve real risk. I think my mind is a risky place. I can go to dark places really easily. And I have struggled with depression and anxiety and all these things and having an ADHD brain that makes all those things harder. And the risk is that the worst can happen and I can snap. And I could just be destroyed. I think maybe someone with sturdier mental health who's not a quadruple Pisces doesn't feel that risk, but I do.

Danny: Yet you're not risk-averse, right?

Simone: Well, no, because I can snap, but that's the risk of being alive. That's the risk of daring to live creatively and daring to be true to yourself. I think it's important that we respect risk. And so, no, I don't have the certainty that I will survive and climb out of there and have a great second act. I don't know.

Danny: What is the biggest risk that you have taken?

Simone: That I have taken?

Danny: Yeah. What have you risked in your business or the way you show up?

Simone: Maybe—I mean, it's not like one dramatic biggest risk because I feel like I'm constantly taking risks that I don't see too many other people taking. I am always taking risks in alienating people who aren't aligned with my message. I constantly burn down super profitable programs because it doesn't feel congruent anymore. I take risks with my finances. I take risks with my popularity. I take risks with what I think I'm good at.

Like right now I'm running a program that's very different from anything I've run before. And I had no prior proof that I would be successful with it. And yet I am doing it anyway because I feel so strongly in my spirit that this is what I need to do now. And so my whole entrepreneurial journey is risk-taking because the only alternative is doing what works because it's safe. And that's stagnation. And remember I said the point of life is to be the fish that's flopping on the ice. I'm gonna be flopping.

Danny: And what do you think your ability to take risk is driven by? What is more important to you?

Simone: I just have a really low tolerance for incongruence. Really low. I think more than 99% of people. When something is misaligned, I cannot stand it. If you say, "Simone, would you rather be congruent and be a pauper or would you be incongruent and be a millionaire?" I would not hesitate for a second because I cannot stand it. I have to be congruent.

So that's what always keeps me taking risks. And not because I enjoy the discomfort. I don't. I like certainty and comfort like everybody else.

Danny: It's more uncomfortable for you to be incongruent.

Simone: It's way more uncomfortable. I can't stand it in my body when I'm incongruent.

Danny: I'm the same when I'm misaligned.

Simone: You know, when I'm choosing the safe thing, even though my soul is screaming no, the other direction, I can't stand it.

Danny: I have the same kind of feeling as well. You know, when I always say that when it's not fun, I'm not gonna fucking do it. When something stops being aligned, fun, joyful, meaningful, it doesn't matter how much I've been making from it. I will kill it.

Simone: Yeah. We're similar that way.

Danny: Yeah. Okay, so I wanna talk about marketing.

Simone: Okay.

Danny: What is one piece of bad marketing advice you wish people would stop following already?

Simone: Okay. It's not advice in the sense that people rarely explicitly say it this way, but it's the assumption behind all bad marketing advice is that you can't trust your people. Conventional marketing fundamentally regards your audience, whoever you're selling to, as untrustworthy. You can't trust them. They don't trust you. Therefore, you can't just say what you mean. You have to go about this roundabout way where you mask your true intentions and you have to give them a hook, like they're fish and you're fishing. And you have to engage their attention in this way. You have to put on the whole show and dance because you can't trust them to want to pay attention to you. So it always has to end up in manipulation.

Danny: You have to bait them.

Simone: You have to bait them. And then you have to manipulate them into staying. And so there's always—underneath all bad marketing advice is you can't trust your people and you can't trust yourself and they don't trust you.

And I think this goes really deep, and most people don't even know that this is the root of the marketing that they've been taught. But "Why would people open my emails if I don't—why would people subscribe to my email if I don't give them a hook, if I don't bait them with the blah, blah, whatever?"

What if, because you trusted them to get you and to value you and like you, because they believe you when you say, "I care about this and I can help you." What if the truth wins? And authenticity wins? And people won't—when I talk about this often, people won't even give what I'm saying a chance because they've been conditioned so hard to believe that there's no way authenticity can work. There's no way truth can work. You have to operate on mistrust. You have to manipulate people.

And so it takes a lot of people a lot of trial and error to come to the place where they're like, "Wow, this feels terrible to be constantly manipulating. It makes me hate marketing. Maybe I'll give what Simone is saying a try where I just trust people to get it and to like me and to believe me and to come along." And it's a big deconditioning process for a lot of people I think.

Danny: I think that when we are thinking that marketing is manipulative or we have to resort to tricks and hacks and bait and hook, I think it's because there is no belief in the—there's a lack of belief in the product, the quality of the product and the offering.

Simone: Yeah. Well that's what I'm talking about. Trust. You don't trust them. You don't trust your offer. You don't trust yourself. So when there's no trust, you always have to fall to tricks.

It's like, imagine entering a relationship that way.

Danny: Yeah. Rocky.

Simone: That's why I always bring in dating and romance metaphors because it makes it really clear.

Danny: Easy to understand.

Simone: What if you felt like you always needed tricks to make someone love you? To meet someone who's right for you, and to get them to love you and to get them to stay with you? What if you always felt like you had to be on and bait them with another thing and hook them with another thing and compel them to stay with another strategy? Do you wanna be in that relationship? And most people would say no, but they keep inviting that for themselves in marketing.

Danny: Yeah. I think this is what happens in a lot of those dating experiences as well, right? You put on your best suit, you put on your best mask and your best—

Simone: Have you ever done that in dating?

Danny: No. I'll probably dress a little bit better, but then later I realized that it's not a sustainable strategy at all because one day this person is gonna see me in my rags.

Simone: But I learned that too late in dating and for a while, I always molded myself into whoever I think the other person wanted me to be. And so after a few years, you realize, "Oh wait, this isn't working."

And so whatever you thought you have about marketing, if you translate that to romance, and if the answer is no, it's not gonna work for your marketing either. Why do you need bait to trap your—if they're the right person for you, by definition, they don't need to be baited. It doesn't mean you don't put on a nice outfit and put on some perfume that makes you feel good and sexy and you wanna put on a good presentation for someone you're attracted to. Of course.

Danny: Right.

Simone: It doesn't mean you show up schlubby in your pajamas with your hair disheveled, but—

Danny: You enjoy that and it's not a manipulation.

Simone: Exactly. Like putting on your cute outfit because it makes you feel good and you wanna appeal to the other person, that's different from "You are not gonna like me if I show you the real me and I pretend to be somebody else, so I have to trick you somehow." That's very different.

Danny: Yeah. So how do you personally navigate the tension between visibility and vulnerability when marketing yourself?

Simone: I don't really think of it as a tension because what I make visible—my vulnerability and visibility always serve a purpose, a mission. In sharing honestly about certain things that I go through, my aim is to help other people who are going through something similar feel seen, understood. To have the sort of unspoken dilemmas inside them be articulated. So that's always my North Star—to help people, to remember, always goes back to reducing suffering, right?

So I ask myself, when I share this, is this gonna help people reduce suffering? Then yes. And when I'm vulnerable in public, it's because I think it's gonna help other people reduce their suffering. When I hold back, that's also part of the calculation of like, how do I help people better? So to me it's not so much are you gonna be open or not, vulnerable or not, it's what are you really after? What is your mission?

The word mission gets overused, but what's the point? And so whatever doesn't serve that point doesn't belong in the conversation. And so what I share vulnerably can be used against me, and sometimes it is used against me. But I don't care because whoever's using it against me, it wasn't for you in the first place.

Like, let's say I shared I have a history of depression, and somebody sees that and thinks, "Oh wow, Simone is unstable." Okay. That message wasn't for you. My message was for someone who sees that and says, "Oh my gosh, I don't feel so broken anymore if Simone shares this experience too. Maybe I don't have to be so hard on myself. Maybe I'm not broken." That was why I did it. For that person.

So for everyone else who takes something else away from that, it wasn't for them. And you have to be very clearly focused on who you're talking to and why it matters to you. And the reason it matters to me that that person hears me is because I would've wanted someone to do it for me when I was suffering.

Danny: So I want your take on this, which is related to what you just shared about possibly being overvulnerable and oversharing. Is there such a thing? And also there is this advice out there that people say you shouldn't share your wounds while it's still oozing and bleeding. You should only share it after it's healed.

Simone: I completely, wholeheartedly disagree with both. So I don't believe in oversharing because I always ask, whenever people ask me, "Is this oversharing?" I ask them, "Okay. So oversharing assumes that there is a correct amount to share. And once you go over that line, it's over, too much." So I ask them, who decides where that line is?

You can share. You just have to not go over this line. Okay. Who draws that line? Tell me who draws that line. And whenever they answer me, it's never an empowering answer. It's always like, "Oh, the patriarchy or capitalism or my really harsh parents or my religion that told me that to be a good person, you have to do that."

You know, so the whole idea of oversharing is based on controlling behavior. Don't you dare step out of line. You have to stay within these lines, behave according to the rules and then you won't be punished. It's part of this whole culture of punishment and control.

So that's why I instinctively rebel against the whole concept of oversharing, and especially because I think as a woman, I know that women are disproportionately attacked for their truth. If a man shares something, it's regarded as brave. And when a woman shares something, it's like, "Oh, she's fucked up" or "There's something wrong with her." That's always been the case.

And it's not just about gender. The more you're at the margins, the more you're punished for your truths. So a really rich white man could say something—a rich, powerful white man could be vulnerable about his struggles. And if a queer, poor Black man could say the same thing, we'd probably put that poor Black queer man in jail for—or say, "Oh, he's a threat to society."

So whether what you're saying is too much always depends on the context of how much power you occupy in society. And I think calling—accusing people of oversharing is just trying to attempt to control and police their behavior and to instill the fear of punishment.

Danny: And also they're uncomfortable with it, right? The people who actually say that you're oversharing is because they are dealing with the discomfort of the information that you're sharing.

Simone: Exactly. They're like, "Wait, how dare you step outside of the lines? I'm trying my best—"

Danny: "I wouldn't do that. Why would you do that?"

Simone: "I fear stepping outside of the lines, so I see you do that and I'm very uncomfortable."

So that's about oversharing. However, yes, there's an important caveat to this. I don't believe in oversharing, but I do believe in sharing for disempowering reasons. So what I think sometimes—I have done this before in the past, where you share from a place of not fully respecting yourself.

Let me give you an example. Like I'm going to share all of my traumas with a stranger that I have no idea if they have the capacity or the willingness or the skill to be able to hold my tender spots with care. Why, if something is really tender for me, why would I dump it on you when I don't know that you can handle that responsibly and caringly and skillfully for me?

So if I am telling you all my traumas and I don't even know if you'll like me, that act is not respectful towards myself. I used to be very open talking to people about my problems because I thought it was just being honest. "Oh, I'm just an honest person. I'm an open book." But I realized that when those people couldn't hold me the way that I needed to be held, it was even more painful. And then I realized, oh, sometimes holding back is a way of respecting myself. Because I only wanna share my truth with people who have the willingness and the capacity and the caring and the skills to be able to hold that in the way that would be helpful to me.

So in that case, that's a question of respect for myself. And I think sometimes we share because we want to—I don't know, people share for all kinds of reasons. "I just wanna lash out. I'm angry, I wanna lash out." Whenever it's not coming from a place that feels like your sovereignty and your power, I think that is a reason to maybe pause and regroup inside. But it's all internal. It's not like, "Oh, you overshared and other people think you're weird." Like, fuck what other people think.

Danny: Yeah. So my experience with this was last year when my mom was really sick. And doctors were saying that she has weeks or maybe even days to live. And I was just so upset, going through the rollercoaster and I was very honest with what I was going through and I was sharing as it happened real time. So it wasn't a case of me trying to process behind the scenes and become a different person.

And I felt like most of the time, I was expected to be this person who has got everything figured out. And this is Dan, who is very positive. He's energized, he's energetic, he's always happy. But then people were not used to seeing that side of me where I was just destroyed, distraught, sad, lost. And I showed that side and I had people coming into my DMs telling me, "Dan, can you please tone it down?" In those words. "Can you please take it a notch down?"

Simone: Oh my gosh.

Danny: Or "Dan, I think you're sharing a little bit too much."

Simone: They're showing you what their fears are.

Danny: And then they say, "Dan, maybe these emotions are private." And they say these things to me and I realized that they were so uncomfortable with what was true to me. But I think that my objective was I didn't know how to be anything else. And I offered what was very tender, very vulnerable, risky even, but ultimately really true of my state. And yet I lost thousands of followers.

Simone: Really?

Danny: And I had people coming into my DMs telling me to tone it down. And that was when I questioned humanity and I questioned like, wow, is this the community for me? I had spent years and years building a loving community and at the first instance when I was in trouble and I needed support, I had—not all though—but I had enough people who came into my DMs and told me to tone it down.

Simone: That shows you who should have never been there in the first place.

Danny: Yeah. Wow.

Simone: Oh, I remember what your second question was, which is sharing from your scars, not wounds. While it's oozing. I really disagree with that. You should only share when all your wounds have healed? Because by that logic, no one would ever have anything to say. Because everyone has some kind of open, oozing wound at all times. I don't know a single person who's perfectly healed in every aspect of their life.

Danny: No, but they're expecting you to have everything processed, figured out. "Come up with a framework, Dan, tell me—"

Simone: Exactly. When it's all nice and tidy and cleaned up and sanitized. I don't want anything to do with that kind of attitude.

However, I get it. I get the kernel of truth behind—the kernel of wisdom in that. But here's my reframe of it. It's not only talk about something once it's healed. It's, you can have a wound that's oozing, but you can be in a relationship with the oozing wound that is coming from where you're rooted in your power. When you're rooted in your sovereignty, you can be like, "Wow, that really hurts." And instead of reacting to it, you can be in a position where—I don't know how else to put it. You can be sovereign, you can be in an intentional relationship with the parts that are oozing.

So it doesn't mean you have to share when things are oozing. Sometimes you just really want to focus on your healing. But I think that this whole "share from your scars" gets very gaslighting. It gets a lot of people just waiting and waiting until everything's all packaged up and tied up with a nice pretty bow. "And here's my five-step framework." And it just erases so much of the inherent chaos and messiness of the human experience, which is where we live most of the time.

Danny: Yes, yes.

Simone: If I had to wait until—God, here's me saying I have a bunch of oozing wounds inside me at all times. And I get up and do shit anyway. And I believe in my voice anyway. And I believe that my messy, imperfect creativity is really important for the world.

Danny: Yeah. You know, when I was sharing my oozing wounds, my point—I had a point. My point was, wow, for once I could share this part that is new that I haven't shown the world.

Simone: I'm so proud of you for doing this.

Danny: Oh, thank you so much. And I felt like that's a clear demonstration. Not after the fact, but while it was happening. And I felt like we needed more examples of what it's like.

Simone: A hundred percent.

Danny: Especially when I'm known as a life coach and I'm supposed to have everything figured out, but I'm like, "No, I've got nothing figured out."

Simone: Yeah.

Danny: "And this is how it looks like."

Simone: And if people are triggered or afraid of you saying that, then they have a lot of work to do on themselves. Because what are you trying to avoid that you can never eliminate from life?

But I wanna be very clear, there are a lot of oozing wounds that I'll never talk about publicly. A lot of it is private. And remember, it's not like—it's always like what serves. And sometimes what might serve people is not what will serve me. Because I have to serve me too. And so it's not that you have to share everything. You share what wants to be shared because a part of your heart is connecting with people whom that truth can help.

And so I keep a lot of my own processing, a lot of my own wounds, private. And it'll be that way for the rest of my life. Certain things. But other things where I feel like I want to talk about it from a place of my sovereignty that's gonna help people, I will talk about it.

Danny: Right. I mean, there was a lot of good that came out of my sharing from my oozing wounds. There were people who came in and said, "Dan, I like you a lot more now."

Simone: And it was for those people. It's been for those people the whole time. And I think sometimes you can pick up people along the way who aren't really here for who we really are. They liked a certain version of us. They liked a certain presentation of us. They liked it when we didn't trigger their own fears or their sense of what's right or wrong.

And so I think that can happen. Doesn't mean you did it wrong. I've experienced similar things in my own journey in different aspects. But you are for people who are excited to be with the fullness of who you are. Not just one aspect, not just one presentation, not just the happy parts, not just the expert. All of you, because life is simply too exhausting when you live in performance mode.

Danny: Yeah. And I think earlier you were just saying, if we love a dog, we can't just love the cuddly bits, right? We have to love the poop, the pooping and—tell us more.

Simone: In a coaching session that happened in this very room with Sarah Mouse, Danny's client, I said, only liking the parts of yourself that are confident and empowered and have got it figured out and brilliant and creative, and not liking the parts of you that are insecure and angry and things that we don't wanna be—scared—is like having a dog and only liking cuddling with the dog and doing cute things like playing catch with the dog, but then not wanting to clean up its poop, not wanting to take it to the vet, not doing any of the dirty, messy, inconvenient work that comes with having a living organism as your companion.

Because if you just wanna cuddle with something soft and furry, then you can buy yourself a soft toy, a fucking plush toy. But if you have a dog, then you have to be in relationship with a living thing that sometimes poops and sometimes gets sick, that's sometimes gonna inconvenience your life.

And so you can't expect yourself to be like a perfect plush toy that doesn't poop, that doesn't get sick, that doesn't inconvenience you. You're gonna inconvenience yourself because you are also a living organism. So you can appreciate the shiny, beautiful, perfect parts of yourself, but when it comes to the messy parts, you have to be like the dog owner who loves your dog. It's like, "Yeah, I'm gonna clean up your poop. I'm still gonna love you if you're not well. I'm gonna take you to the vet. I'm gonna do all the things that are annoying because I don't just love you for the cuddly moments. I love you for who you are." And you have to have that relationship with yourself.

Danny: Yeah. I think we just landed on the title for this podcast.

Simone: What?

Danny: Loving the Poop in Our Lives. Something like that. The poopy bits of our life, right?

Okay. I love that. So I've been so impressed by your ability to create amazing offerings, like crazy ass amazing offerings, wildly successful. Can you spill the tea for us? What's actually happening behind the scenes before a new offer is being born? Are there tantrums? Are there tears?

Simone: It's extremely messy and chaotic. I'm not someone who lines up all my ducks in a row and then does things very strategically. I'm a very fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants kind of person. And I have a very small team and I operate entirely on gut feeling and intuition and emotional pull.

And it took me years to accept this as a valid way of doing things because the rest of the business world was telling me this means I'm an amateur. "If you were a professional, if you're a mature entrepreneur, you would have all your ducks in a row, have a plan and follow your plan." And that never, ever worked for me.

Danny: Worked for you.

Simone: And I think the proof is in the pudding. I know I can trust my intuitive urges. I know I can just wait for the right emotions to stir up. And this is—I am now a new human design convert, thanks to you. And I think this has to do with my human design. It won't work for everybody. But I work very intuitively, very emotionally, very gut instinct.

And that can—I think I'm living proof that that works just as well as, or better than, being obsessed with the plans and being strategic and having everything be perfect. And so because of that, my team doesn't operate like a lot of other teams do. My small team is really used to me totally changing everything at the last minute, making extreme pivots—

Danny: Yeah.

Simone: —and working on something for a long time and then completely scrapping it. And I'm really grateful to my team for bearing with me and loving me not in spite of the way I am, but because of how I am, which can certainly be challenging at times.

Danny: Do you think that emotional pull and being emotional about these things, having a very strong intuition, do you think it makes it easier or tougher?

Simone: It's easier for me because I'm used to my own brain. But I think if you have been—well, I've also been a very free person and I've been a rebel all my life. But if you, even if you have the same human design or whatever, same personality, same ADHD tendencies that I do, but you have had a lot of conditioning in your life from parents or teachers or whatever, society around you that has taught you to be ashamed of the way you are and taught you to distrust the way you operate naturally, I think it could be tough for you to undo some of that conditioning and learn how to trust yourself again.

And I think, as you probably could tell, there are a lot of people who aren't meant to operate this way. There are a lot of people who really benefit from thinking things through in advance, lining up their ducks in a row and following the plan. And if you are that kind of person, you should do that. But if you're not, then you shouldn't.

Danny: Yeah. So we have very similar authority centers, right? So you're emotional intuition. I'm emotional intuition. So my example was related to this retreat. So we were supposed to do a retreat last year during autumn, also in Lapland. And we planned everything. We signed up the vendors and we had the resort, we had the partners, everything was locked down.

And then when we were just about to market it, the website was done. It was complete. It was completed, and I just felt something was off.

Simone: Mm.

Danny: And then I'm like—all the work was seeded. I wanted to pull the plug. So I told Tatia and I say, "Tatia, you know what? I think that we should not go ahead with it." And she's like, "Wait, wait, wait. What's the reason?" And I was like, "I don't have a reason for you apart from the fact that I'm not feeling it. It's not a hell yes." And she was like, "But we've locked everything in—"

Simone: I don't think that is an emotional authority.

Danny: So I was like, "But I'm not really feeling it. I don't know why, but I feel very, very strongly." And she loves me so much that she said, "Okay, if you're not feeling it, then let's—"

Simone: You were so blessed to have people around us who trust us that much, even if they don't—

Danny: They don't get it. And I had no evidence. I had no data points. It's just purely emotionally driven. And for most business people, they are like, "This is a very terrible way to run your business." But she trusted how I felt, and then we just dissolved the whole thing. Now, a month later, my mom got sick.

Simone: It was a resonance from the future.

Danny: Oh boy. So there is logic to this madness.

Simone: Wow. It's not the logic that we think it is, but it's like invisible, other dimension logic.

Danny: Exactly. So then what happened was that we had collectively generated evidence that, "Oh, it works to follow Danny's—"

Simone: Yeah. So then like, "Oh yeah, it would have been so bad if we went ahead with it and people paid and all of that." And now it makes sense.

Simone: I love it.

Danny: Yeah. So this emotional intuition thing is very powerful.

Simone: Yeah. And it is a valid and brilliant business strategy for people who are meant to operate this way.

Danny: Definitely. Okay, next question. What's the most unconventional source of inspiration you have ever tapped into for a business idea?

Simone: Ooh. I think it's Buddhism. It's Buddhism and kind of my ancestral animism. That's where my idea for the course that I ran last year called—what was it called? The Way of the Dragon came from. And I was, and still am, obsessed with Buddhist teachings. And I think it is the key to efficient and ethical marketing and business as well.

When we really internalize, when we really understand what the Buddha taught when he was talking about seeing through the illusions of our attachments and desires and our fears as well, and getting beyond the dualistic thinking of chasing success and trying to avoid failure and ascribing all these meanings to things that are just a construct of the mind. And this was not what I'm used to teaching, but it was such a compelling thing for me that I was like, I have to make a course around this.

And I continue to be—and going forward, that's what I wanna do more of. Because I'm such a spiritual person, I want to work more directly and pointedly with inspiration from different spiritual traditions around the world.

Danny: So Buddhism is a big source of inspiration for you?

Simone: Yeah. Buddhism, Taoism, shamanism.

Danny: Yeah. So earlier you were talking about being daring and bold and taking risk, right? So you have been so bold and daring with your messaging and what you really believe in. So what's the scariest thing that you have ever shared, and how did it crack something open for you after?

Simone: Let me tell you this. Being daring and bold is a muscle. And the more you exercise it, the stronger it gets. Kenji here can just—he just lifted this giant log. It probably is like 50 kilograms. But like he has giant muscles because he works out all the time. And this thing that is so heavy for me is light for him.

And so now I can share some of the most risky, bold, daring things. And there's really nothing that feels like, "Oh my God." That muscle is strong. But the first part of me learning how to build these muscles was like when you've been a total couch potato for 10 years and you go to the gym for the first time.

Danny: Right.

Simone: And you lift a little 10-pound weight and you're like, "Oh man, I'm so sore. That was like, oh my god." So that's what it was like when I first learned how to show up on video. Pressing the live button and then just letting myself stammer for 20 seconds.

Danny: And you didn't like to be seen, right?

Simone: I didn't like to be seen. I didn't like my face. I didn't like my body. I didn't like my voice. I was so uncomfortable with all of it, but I dared myself to go show my face anyway. "Okay, go live for 20 seconds. I don't even care what you say. Do it." And it was mortifying. It was embarrassing. I was so critical of myself, but it was more important that I persist through that so that I can grow my visibility muscle.

In the beginning, I remember I was giving myself challenges like, "Make a video of yourself dancing, doing a silly dance for 20 seconds and post it." Those were a lot harder for me. That's what really took courage and daring in the first part of this journey for me.

But like I said, now my muscles are like Popeye, like Schwarzenegger strong around visibility. Now I can share some of the most vulnerable things, and it's not hard at all. So I want you to know, if you wanna build your visibility muscles, the first part is the hardest. But once you start going to the gym, so to speak, and your muscles start getting stronger, it's gonna be easier and easier and easier. It's only hard in the beginning.

Danny: Okay. So now that you're Popeye, right, is there a part of you that you're still daring yourself to fully bring to the table but haven't yet?

Simone: That's a really good question. That's something I ask myself a lot. I think one thing I really wanna fully, more fully lean into is how spiritual I am and how much the deep, philosophical, spiritual questions undergird everything I do in business.

And I wanna invite people to go as deep as I habitually go in my life, in my mind. And I haven't always—not consciously, but because out of habit, I think, because the rest of the world around me, the rest of the business world is so shallow that I felt like, well, it didn't occur to me to go as deep as I want to.

But you know, in school I studied philosophy and I studied religion. I enrolled in seminary. I'm a very, very—I think very deeply. I'm a very spiritual person, and I think that's an edge where I am constantly, like nowadays I'm really daring myself to lean into. Like, what if you let it be as profound as you know it is?

Danny: Okay. So now I wanna talk about this sabbatical, this void thing. I think it's gonna be so juicy for people who are so afraid of the void, or you're trying to figure things out and you are drawing no answers. So you took eight months off. Are you still taking—has it come to an end?

Simone: Yeah. I'm working now.

Danny: So eight months you took off to wander this void. What was the ugliest, most uncomfortable thought you had to face in that void?

Simone: Like, I'm never gonna get it back. And by "it" I meant the clarity, sense of ambition and purpose. Because I had so much clarity and ambition and purpose for years and years. And while I was on sabbatical, I felt like I lost it all. I didn't know what my purpose was. I didn't know what I wanted to show up for. I had lost all sense of ambition.

And that was a really new and disorienting experience for me. And at a really deep level, I trusted that this phase isn't forever. But I struggled with it all the time because there were more surface layers of my fears that "What if you're never gonna get it back? And this is the end of your career because you can never find clarity again. You can never find enthusiasm again. You never find your sense of purpose again. Like who even are you if you've lost those things? What if you lost it forever?"

And so that was a terrifying question. And the only way I could find the answer was by continuing to sit with the terrifying question, because I couldn't action my way out of the void. I just had to let the mud settle to the bottom. And it did eventually, but it was really scary at times.

Danny: You know, when the void came knocking, when did you realize that the void has come?

Simone: The void has come. Well actually I've known it for a while. Even like six months before my void officially started—and when I say officially started, I mean when I just fully went offline. I was not creating, I was not teaching, I was not selling anything. I was just MIA completely. Even like six months before that, I could feel something. I could feel it was imminent. "I'm gonna give myself a break after this. I'm gonna give myself a break after this. I need to slow down. I need to slow down." And then once I finished all the things that needed to be finished, I was like, "Okay, it's time for the void."

And also, I didn't know it was gonna be eight months. I just thought, "Oh, I'm gonna take like a couple months off and then it'll come back to me." And then a couple months ended, I was like, "Oh, it's not here yet." Four months go by. "Uh, it's not here yet." "Okay, I just need two more months." Two more months go by. So it was like, "Oh my gosh, is it ever gonna come back?"

Danny: Did you get more and more scared?

Simone: Of course, of course. It got really scary and you know, I was lucky to have a pretty healthy business reserve. We weren't gonna run out of money because I have people to pay, I have ongoing expenses in my business. And so I wasn't ever in acute danger, but we were gonna be if this never ended.

And so I was gonna have spent all the money that was in my business reserves. And so it was really scary and in my mind, I went to the place where I had to let everyone go and I had to close my programs because I couldn't afford to keep them afloat anymore. And then what? I constantly worked out the worst-case scenarios in my head because the more time went by, the more those seemed like real possibilities. And once again, that's a risk. And you have to respect the risks that come with being alive.

Danny: So what advice would you give someone if they're in the "What the fuck am I doing with my life? I don't know what the fuck is happening" chapter, who's terrified of the void swallowing them whole?

Simone: It's a really scary place to be. And while some of the biggest growth in my life and the greatest deepening of my life have come from those periods, I would be lying if I said it's not absolutely fucking terrifying.

So be as gentle and compassionate with yourself as possible, and please know that these periods don't come to punish you. It does not mean you did something wrong. Doesn't mean you fucked up your life. Does not mean you made a wrong turn somewhere. It's a kind of initiation.

And the most useful advice that anyone ever gave me for navigating void—because this isn't the first void I walked through in my life, not at all—one of the most useful pieces of advice I got was actually from a lady that ended up being my mother-in-law at the end, but I didn't know it at the time. When I was in my twenties and I was really going through the void, she said, "You know, it's like you have a jar of muddy water that's been shaken and I know you wanna see through the water, but you can't because the water is muddy. And the only way you're gonna see clearly through the water is if the mud settles to the bottom. And that requires time. And what you're doing right now is you keep poking the jar, keep like—"

Danny: "Why is it still—has it settled yet? Has it settled yet?"

Simone: "Has it settled yet? Make it go faster. Make it settle faster." You keep moving the jar. "Leave the jar alone. The fastest way for the mud to settle to the bottom so the water can be clear is if you step away from the jar."

And that's when I really learned the wisdom of kind of being actively showing up for the process by doing nothing. By leaning back and trusting in the unfolding, trusting in the universe. I'm not gonna say it's easy, but remember the jar metaphor. And our culture is so obsessed with action that if we're not taking action, we feel like we're not doing anything. But sometimes the most that you could be doing is not doing anything.

Danny: Is to wait. And then when the conditions are sufficient, spring comes. The grass grows.

Simone: Absolutely.

Danny: So when you were in the void, what did you actively do or not do?

Simone: So I did not create anything for my business. I did not write anything for my business. I did not think about my business mostly because I couldn't. I just couldn't. That part of my brain was dormant. I did not sell anything. I wasn't making any money. And I just had to fully be in the part of my life that had nothing to do with my business.

Danny: Did you read a lot?

Simone: All I did with my time was read novels and play the piano and sleep and spend time with my family. That's all I did. I couldn't even begin to think about anything business related. And all the books that I read and all the piano lessons that I took during my sabbatical really, really nourished me. And they were like my lifeline. I just needed to do that for some reason. And I think they not only helped me to stay sane, I think they really delivered me to the other side of sabbatical. And I think I am stronger and more well-rounded as a person because of this.

Danny: And then what did you do for the parts where the business still requires you to show up? Was it absolutely zero activity?

Simone: Basically. No, no, that's not true. That's not true. I still did weekly calls inside Home. Because the weekly coaching calls, I've done that for years. And it's a lifetime membership program and part of that includes weekly calls. And I always told them, "This doesn't—I continue to do it during my sabbaticals. This doesn't feel like work."

And I think if I didn't coach weekly, I think I would've just drifted off somewhere. I don't—that was like the connection—

Danny: That was a little piece of anchor, right?

Simone: Exactly. Yeah. It was an anchor, it was a tether to—every time after every coaching call I was like, "That felt so good." The connection and me being able to use a muscle, a skillset that I'm really good at to help people. Because coaching is never a chore for me. And so, and I love the Home community and it helps that everyone is so amazing. And so I left every single one of those calls really rejuvenated. And I was grateful for it. I was happy to do it, but it wasn't like money-making activity. It was like delivering on what was already owed to my people.

Danny: Yeah. It kept you alive.

Simone: I think it really did.

Danny: Buoyancy...

Simone: Because sometimes I wanted to turn to myself, "Is this something I should stop to fully be in my sabbatical?" And the answer was no.

Danny: No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would've been the same. So I can already almost anticipate this question coming from those who are listening, right. How do you then discern between a true soul-aligned pause, like a sacred pause versus procrastination dressed up as a sabbatical?

Simone: I think it's how much guilt and shame you're feeling. Because you could be procrastinating, but we had this conversation earlier—if you are really enjoying your procrastination, do it. Then that's not procrastination anymore. It's when we feel guilty and ashamed that it becomes something else.

If you're putting off your work until the very last minute, then enjoy every second that you're not working, whatever you're doing. If you're watching eight seasons of a K-drama instead of working on your business, enjoy the K-drama. That's the difference for me.

Danny: Yeah. A question that I get so often is, "Dan, how do I know if I'm truly resting? Or am I just being plain lazy?"

Simone: Yeah. Is your opinion of yourself while you're doing it?

Danny: Right.

Simone: Yeah. And also I don't believe in lazy. Because when you call yourself—"How do I know if I'm really resting or being lazy?"—what that's really asking is how do I know when it's time to shame myself? Because if you know when you're just being lazy, then that's when you can beat yourself up and say, "Stop being lazy, you asshole." What if you never did that?

I think when you wanna be lazy, you wanna befriend the part of you that wants to be lazy. And you have to learn how to listen for the wisdom behind wanting to be lazy and to honor it and respect it and to ask that part of you, "Hey, what do you need?"

But when people ask, "But what if I'm just being lazy?" what they're really asking is, "What if I'm not worthy? What if I can't trust myself? What if I am just deserving of criticism and condemnation?" And you never are. What if you never treated yourself like that?

Danny: I think that's the difference between saying that I'm a lazy person versus I'm feeling lazy.

Simone: But I don't even mind being a lazy person. I think of myself as a lazy person. I love laziness.

Danny: I feel like I want to be lazy now.

Simone: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. And laziness is a good thing. It means you're subverting extractive, relentless capitalism, productivity culture. Who does that serve? Most cultures around the world, traditional cultures, people spend tons of time lying around doing nothing. It's really the rhythm of how humans are supposed to be—be lazy.

And so I think if you feel lazy, there's probably an impulse inside you that is really pointing you towards regeneration. And I'm not saying that's not inconvenient sometimes. Like sometimes we do have to get up and do stuff, otherwise there's real-world consequences. So yeah, I get it. But you can manage that without shaming yourself and condemning yourself because you put a label on yourself that you think makes you less than.

Danny: Good point. Good point. Okay, so I love this question that I've drafted. So you've built a wildly successful, unconventional business in my eyes, but looking back, what is one chapter of your life that feels like it makes no logical sense at all, but was secretly essential to who you are now?

Simone: My chapter of my life?

Danny: Yes. That made no logical sense, but then it's so essential to who you are now.

Simone: What do you mean by make no logical sense? Like maybe when it happened—

Danny: Yeah. You couldn't see the reason why.

Simone: Yeah. And it made no sense. Actually, yeah. You know what the answer is? The period of my life that was the most painful for me. And that's something that I don't talk about.

Danny: Okay.

Simone: Because it's something that is really private to me.

Danny: Okay.

Simone: But everything around that really did make me who I am. And I never talk about it on purpose.

Danny: Okay. So what was a failure or rejection or a closed door moment that in hindsight turned out to be the biggest blessing or redirection for you?

Simone: So much.

Danny: What comes to mind now?

Simone: I am—it's not so much a rejection per se, but I always felt like I was a failure for not having really committed to my previous careers and not having achieved real milestones in my previous careers, both in the nonprofit world and academia. Like I couldn't make it. Like my narrative was for the longest, "Oh, I just couldn't hack it." But turns out I couldn't hack it because I was meant to hack something else.

And I think all the qualities that made me not a great employee make me a great entrepreneur. And all the qualities that made me not the best at academia make me great at being a creative person. And so I sometimes wonder if conditions had made it easier for me to stay in academia or stay in—I might be wearing what do you call them? Like silver handcuffs. I'm smart enough to have a successful career on the surface in different fields, but I wonder if I'd be as fulfilled as I am now.

Danny: Yeah. You would probably feel very different.

Simone: Yeah.

Danny: Right. Okay. So if someone met you 10 years ago, how wildly different would Simone be compared to the Simone now?

Simone: Absolutely unrecognizable.

Danny: How so?

Simone: Ten years ago I was 29. I do love that version of me because she was awesome, because every version of me is awesome. But she also had no idea how to begin to value things that made her different and she was still trying so hard to fit in.

And I think, you know, I was in my late twenties and when you don't know better, you're like, "Oh, I'm supposed to figure out my life now. I'm about to turn 30. I am supposed to have my shit together." And I think I tried really hard to quote unquote get my shit together in ways that was basically like follow the convention. Try to get on the right tracks. And I was busy doing that and kind of not—but I also didn't know what else to do. So that's where I was. I really didn't know who I was or how to be true to that. So night and day. Night and day.

Danny: Okay. So when you started doing tarot card reading, how much were you charging? $38?

Simone: No, I had like $6. I don't know, something.

Danny: Okay, so you started your journey doing that, which I find it really—

Simone: No, no. That wasn't even—I started doing hypnosis.

Danny: Okay. And how much were you charging?

Simone: Very little. $20, $30 in the very beginning. And then I switched to a hundred.

Danny: So I find it fascinating that from that, and you started with that nominal fee and then now you went on to build like seven-figure business in under two years, right?

Simone: What? Under two years?

Danny: Yeah. I think that's remarkable.

Simone: Hold on. What is this under two years thing coming from? Like from your tarot card readings to your first million made? I think it happened within two years.

Simone: Did it? No, I don't think it was two years. I think it was like—okay. So if we're counting from tarot card reading time point to first million time point, I think it was like three, four years. Okay. But I don't like that timeline because it's not entirely true.

Danny: Right.

Simone: Because when I started doing tarot readings, I had already been a practitioner for 10 years. And not only had I been a practitioner for 10 years, I was very good at it. Because I had been accumulating experience. I already had lots of testimonials from hypnosis clients I've had over the years. So I had been putting in the time. I had fantastic skills.

When I say, "Oh, I was doing like $6 tarot readings or whatever," people think I was just starting out, I was an amateur. No. I was an incredibly skilled, perceptive practitioner who had a great track record of success working with people who needed help with whatever it was.

And so all of that plus all the entrepreneurial trial and error—more error—built up for like a decade was what accumulated into—"Oh, it's like so sudden explosion of business success," but there was nothing overnight about it. Nothing whatsoever.

Danny: So were there any big internal shifts that you experienced that brought you to the seven-figure business? Or were you always the same person?

Simone: I think I was always the same person, but you have to—this sounds so cliche—but you really have to fall in love with failure and rejection and everything you're avoiding, that emotional discomfort. When you become someone who runs headfirst towards emotional discomfort, that really changes everything.

But I don't think everyone is—I don't think that's necessarily the prescription for everybody. Because not everyone—it's not healthy for everyone to do that at every single point of the journey. Some people need more healing, some people need more time to find out who they are. There's a lot of kind of psychological, spiritual scaffolding that has to be in place before you can go out and try to run headfirst into discomfort. Because when you do that and you're not ready, you can just get wounded. You can just slip and fall.

So I don't think—I wouldn't feel comfortable saying, "If you wanna make a million dollars, run headfirst towards your greatest fears." No, you have to develop some inner strength first. You might have to go on a journey to find out who you really are, what you really want. And you have to learn skills of self-relating and self-respect and self-liking. And when a lot of those skills are strong, then you can run headfirst for discomfort.

That's why I say that the timeline, my timeline is long. I've been working on how to like myself for a long time. I've been developing that failure resilience, rejection resilience for a long time. And the fact that I got there when I did doesn't mean that other people are doing it wrong if they take longer.

Everybody is creating, concocting different sort of medicinal blend based on all of their accumulated life experience. And so I don't wanna make one journey sound like it's the right way to do it.

Danny: Okay. So a lot of them come to me when they are figuring out how to transition from their soul-sucking day job and they feel like it's so difficult to pry themselves away from that to do something that they are wildly passionate in. How would you advise them?

Simone: I think it's a bit dangerous to pin all of your hopes and dreams on a creative business that you haven't started yet. Because what happens is that people start strategizing the idea of a creative business, and they project everything that they're currently missing from their lives on that dream.

So "Right now, my job is so soul-sucking, but once I can have my creative business, then I'll just feel free and confident. I can do whatever I want." And so when they have this—I've seen this happen to so many people—when they have that projection, the more miserable they grow in their current job. It's like, "Oh, when you have the job—when you have the thought, 'My job is so soul-sucking,' the more you hold onto that thought, the more soul-sucking it becomes."

There's no job that is inherently soul-sucking. And it creates a gap where you feel like you have to make this dramatic jump. "And then I go to my creative business, and then everything's beautiful and hunky-dory. And I'll finally be recognized for what I'm really passionate about. And then people will love me."

And everyone knows who actually has grown a real business that it doesn't look like that in the beginning. The first part of making any business viable is sheer terror and failure and rejection and humiliation fest. I mean, that's not all there is, but you have to get through all of that before you can taste like, "Wow, I'm being recognized for what I'm passionate about. I'm being paid."

And so this whole like, "Oh, I wanna transition to my creative business and get out of my soul-sucking job"—that false dichotomy of "It's gonna be so amazing over there"—that is exactly what gets people starting their businesses and then quitting when things don't feel delightful. Because I assure you, if you wanna have a creative business that replaces your day job in terms of income, the path of building that is going to be even more soul-sucking than your job if you are not in it for the right reasons. If you look at it as an escape, there's no escape from discomfort. To build your business, you have to be ready for the discomfort, so you're not shocked and you don't retreat.

And so I think it's not—I don't wanna discourage people from pursuing their business dreams. I love creative business, but I wanna give people perspective. It's not an escape from anything. In fact, it's like inviting way more discomfort into your life. So are you ready for it? And you don't have to be perfectly ready for it. Are you willing to grow from it as it happens? Because there is no fantasy that you'll be able to fast-forward to quickly.

Danny: I love that. I love that.

Simone: And ironically, what I just said sounds discouraging, but people burn out so fast and they get discouraged so fast by reality when they don't know this. So are you gonna be discouraged? Reality is what it is. Am I gonna be discouraged or am I going to grow with it?

I think that's it. And that's why I'm so cautious about this fantasy of a creative business. The brutal reality is that most people don't make it. Not because they don't have what it takes, but because they fell in love with a fantasy that never panned out for them.

Danny: Oh my goodness. Okay. So last question for you. What's something you have never been asked in an interview, but you wish somebody would finally ask you?

Simone: Ooh, that's hard.

Danny: What would you like to tell me that I haven't already asked?

Simone: Well, you already know everything there is to know about me, but I guess if I were to say—if I had anything to add to people who are listening, I wanna say this. I think you might agree with me.

There is not one person that you look up to who you think is so successful, so has their shit figured out, so aspirational—there's not one person who is any less fucked up than you are. Like the bigger, the shinier someone looks, probably the more they're fucked up. Everyone is equally fucked up.

Danny: Right.

Simone: Everyone. Everyone has the same amount of shadow. And don't put anyone on a pedestal. Once you get to know anyone deeply enough, you see that they have the same amount of shit that you do. And that goes for me. That goes for you. That goes for people that are my greatest teachers that I look up to. I know that they have the same amount of fucked up as I do. Because we're all human.

And I think that is a really important, profound thing to know and not enough people know. And I only want people to come into my world and work with me and hire me when they know that I am just as fucked up as they are. And that doesn't disqualify me. If that disqualified people, then everyone would be disqualified.

Danny: It makes you more human, actually.

Simone: Yeah. And so I have just the same amount of contradiction, same amount of hypocrisy, same amount of vulnerability, resistance, fears, neurosis—you name it. And everyone I love that is interesting to me that I want to do life with are people who—it's not that they're not perfect people. It's people who work with their own fucked-upness with courage and creativity. Like you.

Danny: Aw.

Simone: And so that's what I wanna say.

Danny: Okay. So we're gonna wrap this up by you thinking of a question to ask me because I've asked all the questions.

Simone: Okay. So you said last year when you were going through your mother passing and grieving her was when your people—some of the people that you thought were your people were like, "Oh Dan, how can you—how dare you not be happy and easygoing all the time? How dare you." And they left your world because they couldn't handle that you were a multifaceted person. What do you think is your next edge in terms of showing the world the multidimensionality of Danny Lim that maybe the world hasn't quite seen yet?

Danny: Whoa. I don't know. It's a void. It is a void. I'm figuring out my—I'm figuring out my shit as well, but I feel some of the pieces landing. I feel my mojo coming back. I feel like this is going to be a year of surprises for myself and I'm just gonna surrender.

Simone: So I think your answer is like, we're gonna figure out what it is together. Like what the new edges—

Danny: Yeah.

Simone: —me too, actually.

Danny: Yeah. And I'm living in a question.

Simone: Perfect. Yes, yes.

Danny: Let's live in the question, guys. Thank you so much. I love this.

Simone: Thank you for asking me the best questions and being the brother from a different mother that you are.

Danny: Yeah. Thanks for being here.